tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post1115239652841417776..comments2023-09-15T05:54:48.691-07:00Comments on SERIAL GANKER: Grand Theft! My Sandbox was stolen!sid67http://www.blogger.com/profile/16656756657483499337noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-41924274646353829492010-03-05T12:17:21.608-08:002010-03-05T12:17:21.608-08:00@Shadowar:
You can distill a complex topic into a...@Shadowar:<br /><br />You can distill a complex topic into a soundbite, but all that helps you do is win the argument.<br /><br />For any intellectual discussion about the topic, it's worthless.<br /><br />Soundbites only win elections. They don't fix or address real issues. <br /><br />Do they serve a purpose? Sure. But only in the context of trying to persuade other people to your point of view by oversimplifying complex problems.<br /><br />The term Sandbox is the MMO equivalent of a soundbite. Great for winning a forum war, lousy for any deeper conversation.<br /><br />I would much rather use very specific attributes of a game to describe it. MMOs are hardly as complex as political problems, so the need for soundbites is not exactly huge.sid67https://www.blogger.com/profile/16656756657483499337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-2998059461681401282010-03-05T08:36:20.355-08:002010-03-05T08:36:20.355-08:00What about Fallen Earth? I think the majority of p...What about Fallen Earth? I think the majority of people identify it as a Sandbox game, but I am not sure it could be called a dominion game.Mighttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07712210999607899502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-7206649542154239112010-03-05T05:55:05.842-08:002010-03-05T05:55:05.842-08:00The fact that you are debating the terms used does...The fact that you are debating the terms used doesn't indicate poor application of terminology. Instead, it means, that like all things, summation of complex systems is rarely possible within a singular word. Games have varying shades of implementation, focusing upon different areas and designing with different goals in mind. The terms "sandbox" and "themepark" have come to be used as terms describing degrees of freedom.<br /><br />WoW is freedom-lite. There is a set progression to achieve once you reach the destination (end-game, level 80). It has daily, repeatable quests designed to help earn rewards. A blatant example tracks.<br /><br />WAR is a mix. There is a set progression model of gear, there are defined areas of play. However, the focus on PvP means reliance on other players and yourself to generate content. Additionally, the introduction of multiple methods of progression provides a series of roads to take. Part sandbox, part themepark.<br /><br />EVE is freedom-heavy, though still has some tracks. Anyone can go anywhere, and have activity. The destination and ultimate goal are your own to decide. What you want to do, is just that, up to YOU.<br /><br />So perhaps, through all this, the realization should be, not the reality of the playing field, but the concept of the goal. The more the destination is defined by the player, the more freedom they have, and the less of a "themepark" it is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-76428777522091601322010-03-04T17:04:50.929-08:002010-03-04T17:04:50.929-08:00Personally I see both of their pluses, in fact I a...Personally I see both of their pluses, in fact I am playing two theme parks and zero (at the moment) sand boxes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-27683310672589982162010-03-04T14:05:32.893-08:002010-03-04T14:05:32.893-08:00Yeah. Dominion is such a better, non-vague term. L...Yeah. Dominion is such a better, non-vague term. Let's get out there and Dominion the hell out of those asteroids!<br /><br />Themeparks can be fun, but how many times can you ride the same rides? Sure I know some people buy season passes to Six Flags and go every weekend, but personally, one trip every 20 years is enough for me.Tholalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13602552885840666836noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-65617663849429390962010-03-04T11:45:04.418-08:002010-03-04T11:45:04.418-08:00I will agree that there may be a word that could b...I will agree that there may be a word that could be created that would better convey what these types of design philosophies mean, but at the same time it is generally understood within the community as our current best word. Show someone experienced in these things UO and they 'know' it's sandbox, regardless of if they 'know' exactly what terms a sandbox strictly follows. In the same sense the same person looks at LotR:O and 'knows' it is a theme park. <br /><br />I'm all for calling these types of games "World Simulator's that put a greater emphasis on player creativity and interactivity that follows a design paradigm that serves to enhance by this philosophy", however this is both long and would not be as easily recognized or accepted in the same way the simple to read and (almost) universally understood term 'sandbox'Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-60136759784974076782010-03-04T08:36:54.158-08:002010-03-04T08:36:54.158-08:00The metaphor should at least fit what you are tryi...The metaphor should at least fit what you are trying to describe.<br /><br />Sandbox best fits open-ended worlds as it was original used to describe games.<br /><br />It's usage as it relates to MMOs is not as easy to nail down.<br /><br />Ask 10 people what Sandbox MMO means and you'll get lots of different answers. What it tries to describe is ambiguous. Is it lack of levels? Player controlled regions? Horizontal expansion?<br /><br />If I say that I'm a Lion, does that mean I am powerful? Or fearsome? Or a predator? Or fierce? Or Wild?<br /><br />It can mean any of those things or only one depending on context.<br /><br />My issue here is in the merit of using the metaphor as a description in the first place. It's too vague and subject to misinterpretation.sid67https://www.blogger.com/profile/16656756657483499337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-11675908401381464582010-03-04T01:09:30.186-08:002010-03-04T01:09:30.186-08:00The very fact that these words are metaphors for t...The very fact that these words are metaphors for the design philosophy implies that we shouldn't try to use a strict literal in judging them.<br /><br />If you truly want to do a real world comparison it may work, but very poorly.<br /><br />A better real world comparison would be to invite someone to either visit a real theme park, or to visit the real sandbox except you need to include that the visitor will be given an architectural team and unlimited supplies with which to build their sand castles.<br /><br />Now it is a more fair comparison, you will have some that pick the sandbox, and of course you will still have many that pick the theme park. It's all in the personality traits.<br /><br />As for your stance that we can't use the word sandbox because not everyone is in 100% agreeance with its meaning that would also imply that we cannot use the word theme park, or the phrase 'virtual world', or the term 'massively' in our mmo's.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-217992346803710112010-03-04T00:32:26.353-08:002010-03-04T00:32:26.353-08:00You are talking about how these games function. I&...<i>You are talking about how these games function. I'm talking about the merit of using that word to describe those games.</i><br />I guess I am missing the point, because I don't see how it's possible to discuss the merit of a metaphor without discussing how well it fits the games.<br /><br /><i>Also, you are using those sandbox/themepark quotes out of context.</i><br />How so? Everything I've said applies equally to games and the real-world equivalents of the metaphors.<br /><br /><i>Which would you rather go to?</i><br />As always, it depends. Do I want to see what the designer has come up with? Or do I want to see what fellow players have come up with and create my own works?<br /><br /><i>an outside observer would view a themepark as better because of it's real life association to something fun and exciting.</i><br />Ah, this explains a lot. Again, you're associating your own bias with the words. If you are unable to understand why others could consider a real-life sandbox fun and exciting, then the metaphor won't make sense to you either.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00178860601734528122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-92073300271931707652010-03-03T22:39:52.725-08:002010-03-03T22:39:52.725-08:00/sigh
Hirvox, I think you entirely missed the poi.../sigh<br /><br />Hirvox, I think you entirely missed the point. You are talking about how these games function.<br /><br />I'm talking about the merit of using <i>that</i> word to describe <i>those</i> games.<br /><br />The very fact we can debate what is and is not a sandbox only serves to prove the point that it's a bad word to use to describe these games.<br /><br />My point is that it would be better to use some other word that better describes the FEATURE.<br /><br />Also, you are using those sandbox/themepark quotes out of context. When I say "Or a sandbox." I'm talking about a <i>real</i> sandbox (the kind found at a playground) as compared to a real themepark (like Disneyland).<br /><br />Which would you rather go to? Point being that without the context that themeparks are "on rails", an outside observer would view a themepark as better because of it's real life association to something fun and exciting.<br /><br />So again, I'm criticizing the <i>words</i> -- not the games we associate with those words.sid67https://www.blogger.com/profile/16656756657483499337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-19714792617785018352010-03-03T22:13:42.549-08:002010-03-03T22:13:42.549-08:00My real point here is that the term is a poor choi...<i>My real point here is that the term is a poor choice of words.</i><br />Only if you think in black and white. No game is pure sandbox or pure theme park, but it's certainly possible to say whether it's more like one or the other. Even a theme park allows you to freely pick your ride, but once you pick one, you'll sit where you're told to, keep all appendages within the car and the ride will reset for the next user. It may have walkways, but the core content is the rides.<br /><br /><i>I'm not trying to call one game better than another.</i><br />Sure you aren't.<br /><br /><i>Themeparks are exciting! They spend millions if not billions of dollars making them incredibly fun and memorable. They are at the peak of all possible forms of entertainment.</i><br /><br /><i>It just strikes me as silly to use the better of two things as the derogatory term.</i><br />Any derogatory connotations are wholly within the eye of the beholder. And while Internet turf wars are all the rage nowadays, it's possible to enjoy both themepark games and virtual world sandboxes. Strange, I know.<br /><br /><i>Or a Sandbox. With sand. Oh, the joy.</i><br />Yes, a sandbox would make a boring theme park. But a theme park is also a pretty lousy sandbox.<br /><br /><i>True. And such freedom exists in other games as well. The one that is top of mind is Noor the Pacifist.</i><br />The crucial difference is the degree that the game supports those choices. If playing a pacifist is "like pulling teeth", then it's fair to say that the game doesn't support it, even if it's technically possible. But if the game provides proverbial shovels, buckets, action figures and even sample sandcastle designs, then it supports the sandbox model.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00178860601734528122noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-67011065729372328232010-03-03T15:15:42.230-08:002010-03-03T15:15:42.230-08:00The term sandbox also implies a certain style of h...The term sandbox also implies a certain style of how the game will be updated. Games like EVE and Darkfall release new content in a way that does not diminish old content in a way that games such as WoW might. Instead of a new ride being added, new shovels, rakes, buckets, and tubes are added to the sandbox which enhances the player freedom of expression.<br /><br />This does not imply that there is no way to be expressive in a non-sandbox, but that the game does not encourage it at a base level.<br /><br />You use the pacifist in WoW as an example, he is a creative and unique individual. The key here is that the game does not support him, it merely tolerates him. The game nods its head and then never thinks "hey, this might just be something valid" instead of creating new tools which help to make his play experience gain depth it instead continues to add rides.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-77090904650974862992010-03-03T12:48:36.092-08:002010-03-03T12:48:36.092-08:00From that freedom arises an opportunity for creati...<i>From that freedom arises an opportunity for creativity.</i><br /><br />True. And such freedom exists in other games as well. The one that is top of mind is <a href="http://www.wow.com/2008/01/08/15-minutes-of-fame-noor-the-pacifist/" rel="nofollow">Noor the Pacifist</a>.<br /><br /><i>..and why did the sandbox term get adopted in the first place?</i><br /><br />Because a sandbox game implies that you aren't confined by conventional rules. And relative to most genres, all MMOs fit into that category by virtue of being open-ended worlds.<br /><br />I'm not trying to call one game better than another. I realize it feels that way if you are on one-side of the fence, but my real point here is that the <b>term</b> is a poor choice of words.<br /><br />If I'm being blunt, I think the point that many people can view Warcraft as a 'sandbox' in it's own right is indictment enough that the word choice is poor.sid67https://www.blogger.com/profile/16656756657483499337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3249541406364691686.post-78712647208913161002010-03-03T11:19:06.814-08:002010-03-03T11:19:06.814-08:00..and why did the sandbox term get adopted in the .....and why did the sandbox term get adopted in the first place? Because playing in a sandbox is all about leaving a mark on the world. If you build a castle, it'll stay there until it rains or someone knocks it down. Even walking leaves footprints. If a disaster strikes in SimCity, that area will remain devastated until you fix it. If you make a volcano in Populous, it'll leave a lasting scar on the landscape.<br /><br />From that freedom arises an opportunity for creativity. Nobody's going to tell you what kind of a house you're going to make in Sims. <a href="http://aliceandkev.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow">Maybe you don't want a house at all.</a> Nobody's going to tell you that you can't live in peace with your neighbors in Civilization. All of that creativity is hard to map into an arbitrary number called a level. The lack of levels is a side effect at best.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00178860601734528122noreply@blogger.com